GTA IV Will Kill Your Children
April 29th, 2008 by Sam |
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As some of you may know, Grand Theft Auto IV came out today, and as every piece of news media will gleefully tell you, it will do nothing short of causing your schools to become killing grounds full of deranged 10-year-old prostitute killers. Wait, did I say every piece of news media? I completely forgot NPR’s coverage of the game. See, while the folks at Fox News are tripping all over themselves trying to scare the hell out of parents everywhere, and while CNN has been telling only one side of the story, NPR actually presents a calm and balanced view of the game. Rather than only covering the already-hyped violence, their article covers the depth of the story, the satire that saturates everything in the game, and the sheer scale and openness of the game-world. Still, the most important parts of NPR’s coverage come from their conversation with mental-health experts Lawrence Kutner and Cheryl Olsen, the writers of the book Grand Theft Childhood
See, Alarmists? This is what real journalism looks like. Also: PWND. Now, if you’ll excuse me, my newly-purchased copy of the game isn’t going to play itself. |
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April 29th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
There have been studies on video games and violence, and after GTA3 came out real Grand Theft Autos went down by 50%. I hardly think people who play the game would really want to commit violent crimes because the majority of those who play video games can still differentiate the virtual world from the real world. If you really think about it, this is a good method for relieving stress. Stricter gun laws would stop people from killing, not stopping video games from being produced.
April 29th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
Its not video games that corrupt children, its parents. If a child has no sense of whats right and whats wrong the child will not learn to seprate his fantasy GTA life with his actual life. Negletive parents that sit there and teach their child nothing are the reasons for school shootings not video games. The will be millions of children that will be playing this game by the end of the week, and 99.9% of them will not show any signs of change in behavour at all. Its the parents who let their child wreak havoc who will see all the prostitute killings and muggings and robbings in the video game and think its okay. Games like this are not the reason for school shootings and kids microwaving cats, its shitty parenting. so stop blaming society and start blaming yourself. 400 million people will play this game, and if it influences your child to do wrong its your fault: not the game’s.
April 30th, 2008 at 4:12 am
I definitely do not believe video games cause violence, but I do believe that they can contribute to it, especially in younger kids that shouldn’t be playing these games. I’ll probably play it, and like it, but I’m way over the minimum age.
Still though, your arguments are terrible and they just show how little you all really know:
Sam: your entire argument is that two mental health experts, neither of which are known for any real contribution to the advance of knowledge in their field (one is primarily a writer, not a researcher) say it’s OK?
If you read their book, it actually suggests that video games CAN affect kids, and badly. Their position is (like most truth often is) someplace between the video game industry and the panic-mongers. Using them as a reference to say “see, nothing is wrong” just proves you haven’t actually read their research, and neither did the author of the article you quoted. Real journalism? I guess not.
Dan: So, according to the crime stats that you keep in your mom’s basement, GTA3 caused a nationwide 50% reduction in cars being stolen? Oddly enough, the FBI database that tracks crime doesn’t agree. Auto theft is actually UP almost 4% in the western U.S. (although it has been on a slow decline elsewhere). It certainly didn’t drop by 50% after the release of some video game. A car is stolen in the U.S. every 26 seconds. You should check yours.
Doing research before posting fake facts helps you not sound like a complete dope.
Brian: did you know that 99.9% of all statistics used in arguments are made up on the spot? Where’s your research? Or is it only true because you believe it to be?
Let’s do some math, shall we? If 4 million people play this game, and ONLY your .1% show a change in behavior, that’s still 400,000 people. Hmmm. I’d really like to see a link to your degree. You know, the one that lets YOU decide that absolutely nothing influences kids except bad parenting…because pretty much every mental health expert in the entire world disagrees (you know, the grown ups with actual degrees?).
Attacking parents to make your point just shows that have no facts to use.
April 30th, 2008 at 5:47 am
Stephen, did u seriously log on to this website a 4 in the mourning to Argue with ignorant gamers that really don’t give shit what you think!?!? By the way I just copped that GTA4 holy shit I can’t wait to finish school to go back home and start playing again!!! That game is the shit!!! Makes me want to go out and kill ppl in real life!! LOL :p
April 30th, 2008 at 6:20 am
As previously stated before, games do not corrupt children, it’s their garbage parents that fail and want to blame someone else for their incompetence.
April 30th, 2008 at 6:21 am
EDIT ON LAST POST: I guess i’m brian2, (there’s another brian before my post, didn’t realize that.) Not that it matters.
April 30th, 2008 at 7:52 am
Stephen: To clarify: my point isn’t “see? nothing’s wrong”. My point in this post is “there’s more than one opinion on this issue”. My problem with most pieces on GTA, or any other controversial game for that matter, is that the alarmists are usually the only ones who get heard. NPR was the only non-gaming source I’ve come across so far that actually covered the game as more than just a public menace, and made at least a vague attempt to show the different sides of the controversy.
GTA, much like R rated movies, was made for adults, and the perception that this game was made with blatant disregard for the well being of children comes from the false assumption that it’s Rockstar’s job to keep the game away from said children. The responsibility, and the failure to meet it, in this case lies with game retailers and parents. Believe me, I don’t think that 10 year olds should be playing M rated games, but portraying a game geared towards adults as dangerous and destabilizing just because kids can have access to it seems to be judging the game by the wrong set of standards.
April 30th, 2008 at 11:04 am
I wholly agree with Sam. Portraying only the negative and upsetting side of an argument is always better for ratings… and that’s really all Fox News and CNN want.
The real failure is on the part of the parents. I actually saw a mother buying a copy of GTA3 for her kid (who was probably 10 at the oldest) at Best Buy… Ignorant and lazy parents are the true reason that adult targeted media (movies, music, video games, teh interwebs) get a bad wrap.
Would those same parents hand their kids their car keys, alcohol, prescription medications, or firearms? Actually… don’t answer that!
April 30th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Stephen, I think a lot of what you said is valid (albeit, condescending and inflammatory), and I appreciate that you actually checked up on the statistics before responding. You got one tiny thing wrong: .1% of 4,000,000 is 4,000, but that is still 4,000 too many criminals anyways, so your underlying point is valid and I agree with it. Sam, your post and response above are also spot on- some video games may have a terrible influence on kids, but the parents are the ones who are required to keep it out of their hands. Porn is not great for younger kids either, and letting them watch it is lazy and neglectful. Games and movies have ratings, society needs to use them.
April 30th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
I can only sit here and sigh. Thats all I can do. Does contributing to a conversation change the world? No. Does it make me better to rant over the declining amount of common sense? Yes. So, Ill do just that.
First and foremost, I am willing to bet that the journalists haven’t even touched the game. Westboro Baptist church was anti-Ledger because of Brokeback Mountain, but did they watch it? Doubt it. So, their side of the news is probably subjective on “oh no!!!1 you can sleep with a hooker and then kill her for your money back?!??!!one” Besides, reporting in America is and always will be corrupt and nothing less than bilge.
Lets not forget that the majority of gamers are still 18-25. If you don’t like the violent games near your kids, there is always Mario.
Yes, the parents are mostly responsible. However, lets focus on the individual. Because unless you are a sociopath, everyone knows that its no Ok to walk into a school and start lighting it on fire. So if, a teen decides to pull a Columbine, place most of the blame on that individual for making a choice to end innocent lives. They knew it was morally and fundamentally wrong to kill, which is why they always turn the trigger on themselves. I do believe that we should follow paper trails. If a child had committed a crime in relation to acts apparently “drilled” into his head from the game, then file charges against the negligent parent for purchasing it for a minor. Its illegal to buy alcohol for a minor, why not this?
Finally, lets not forget how cruel our society is. We are very much the ones to place blame on a video game because Johnny shot up his elementary. Forget the fact that he was mentally and physically abused by other students. Forget the fact he was beat up daily and called a “fag”. Forget that no staff would help, because we wasn’t the star student. No, no, no…it was GTA that made him kill.
April 30th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
I think you’re all overlooking one very important fact:
Katamari Damacy kicks GTA’s ass up and down the line, and you don’t see reports of kids gone wild rolling up the streets, now do you?
Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, naaaaaa FTW.
April 30th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Devin, well ranted. Alphamonkey, I was almost run over by not one, not two, but THREE Katamari rollers on the way to work today. It is a scourge and I think it needs to be stopped. That said, the new stars in the sky have been a pleasant result of the game.
April 30th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
Stephen-
First off, i’d like to say good rebuttals, that being said, your first paragraph is really the defining point of your argument.
You say “I definitely do not believe video games cause violence, but I do believe that they can contribute to it, especially in younger kids that shouldn’t be playing these games. I’ll probably play it, and like it, but I’m way over the minimum age.”
This is actually what most people here and anywhere are arguing about the game, forget statistics, the point lies that “they can contribute to it [violence] especially in younger kids that should not be playing these games”
If we accept your premise that they can contribute to violence which also doesn’t seem to be backed with anything, but even if we accept that premise as fact the conclusion that one should draw from this is younger kids THAT SHOULD NOT BE PLAYING these games…. should not play it.
You seem to have mistaken the conclusion into something along the lines of “this game should be banned”
This is on par with blaming alcohol for drunk driving. Of course that is a faulty argument the blame for drunk driving goes to the moron who decided to drive after having a few too many. They once did enact this argument actually, it was called prohibition, didn’t work out so well .
As many people have said it is up to the parents to make sure that young kids who should not be playing these games don’t.
April 30th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
I find it fascinating that there is no peanut butter/chocolate combination as powerful as media/parenting wherein all common sense must be cockpunched into oblivion.
The notion that playing a video game (either singularly or as a cumulative hobby) would prompt a child not already prone to anti-social or violent behavior into running wild in the streets like some flesh pixel God of War is so far beyond the notion of plausibility as to be almost laughable (that is, if the notion wasn’t given so much credence by otherwise intelligent people).
We’re a culture that desperately needs someone/something/anything to blame (provided it’s not, you know, us), which wouldn’t be so bad if we could manage to look at things on a macro level. Blaming video games for violence and bad behavior in kids is like blaming the Gutenberg press for cancer.
Here’s the scary truth: Ours is a culture that is wildly in flux. Our notions of how the world works are vastly behind what our science shows to be so. Personal responsibility has been supplanted and overtaken by the glorification of victimhood. We’ve traded reason and analysis for gut-reaction and commentary, and we traded the reward and responsibility of raising our kids for an increasing unattainable middle class entitlement and three car garage.
Everyone of those factors contributes to an anti-socialization of children on a level that Rockstar’s programmers couldn’t hope to achieve in their wildest fantasies, no matter how many hookers you kill.
And all that on a single cup of coffee. Huzzah!
April 30th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
“We’ve traded reason and analysis for gut-reaction and commentary, and we traded the reward and responsibility of raising our kids for an increasing unattainable middle class entitlement and three car garage.”
I don’t believe that there is a better way to say it. You, sir/mam, win the noble peace prize.
You totally said what was on my tongue that I could not, for the life of me, transfer into words typed on a keyboard. Everything effects the social behavior of not only our children but ourselves. Whether it be genius catch phrases from Paris Hilton to moronic ramblings of cult religions. *cough* Long live XeNu *cough* So the question I leave to you all: How do we fix it? How do you make it all right when everything is theoretically wrong and right at the same time?
April 30th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
alphamonkey FTW!
April 30th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Alphamonkey FTWH!!! (For The White House)
May 1st, 2008 at 10:34 am
BoingBoing just posted a good piece on the violence in GTA4.
May 1st, 2008 at 1:06 pm
[...] they’ve done a few posts about the various media portrayals of the apocalypse Grand Theft Auto franchise, and quite a discussion [...]
May 3rd, 2008 at 10:21 am
i didnt kno that sony made the xbox
May 3rd, 2008 at 5:56 pm
GAMES(???) What are these games all about(???)_ Do you enjoy the thought that through these games, The minds of children are being moulded and configured like clay in the hands of gleeful greedy people who want nothing more than to rake in as much cash as they possibly can taking full advantage of the prurient and potentially destructive
imaginations of their willing and obedient clients(???) Or will you as I
suspect, write me and my rant off and go on letting your own attachment write you off as a lost cause. You’re wasting your money and your mind with games that think for you and teach you to encourage
yourself to entertain thoughts of doing things that you would never otherwise wish to do to another human being. That’s all, nothing less.
May 3rd, 2008 at 9:39 pm
You’re wasting your money and your mind with games that think for you and teach you to encourage
yourself to entertain thoughts of doing things that you would never otherwise wish to do to another human being.
So, how do you feel about horror films? War novels? Romantic comedies? All narrative media is designed to allow us to safely experience the world through the eyes and actions of another. Hell, even static art is there to give us a glimpse of the world through someone else’s eyes. It is through art and media that we can allow ourselves to engage in flights of fancy, and acknowledge the true meaning of self without inflicting results onto the real world. It’s how we cope as a species.
You say ‘children’. Do you realize that GTA IV is a rated MA game, not meant for sale to children under the age of 17? It’s a game that is designed for, and aimed at an older audience. Does that mean kids won’t see/play it? Of course it doesn’t. There’s no shortage of parents who don’t pay attention to what they are buy, or to what their kids are watching/listening to/playing/doing.
The very simple logical error you are making is the assumption that because it’s a video game, it must be for kids. It’s a myth that won’t die, even in the face of a multi-billion dollar industry (being driven by ADULTS who buy consoles and games for themselves).
May 5th, 2008 at 12:40 am
I think GTA and every game like it should be banned. People need to think for themselves. Kids are being ruined by ________. I think TV is an idiot box that sucks your intelligence out of your eyes. Society is filled with a bunch of consumerist sheep.
Honestly, anyone who says any combination of the above annoys me, but I know that there is no point in arguing with them. These are the generic, unsupported arguments of the marginally informed self-righteous reactionary. Despite the lack of facts, figures, or personal experience, they seem intent on making and standing by large sweeping judgments that you will never shake them from.
When I saw “Child’s Play” by myself, in the dark as a young child it F##KED ME UP. My grandfather should NEVER have let us rent that video, but he was not good at that whole informed parenting thing (my sister and I were staying with him for the weekend). My parents were good at it, and they prevented us from seeing R movies etc. It is the job of parents to keep their kids from growing up to the next Virginia Tech shooter, and that involves keeping games away from them.
GTA4 is not for kids. They are not supposed to buy, own, play, or even watch someone else play it. The parents who are complaining about the violence in this game, and what it will make kids do, are skipping the part where it is the video game equivalent of an R or even NC17 movie. The kids playing this game have BAD PARENTS. Will it damage a child’s mind? Possibly. Maybe even probably. But it is NOT FOR THEM.
May 5th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
I know of no parents who would allow their children to watch an ‘18′ rated movie. Yet they’re happy to buy them a game that is rated ‘18′ (in Britain) and allow them to play it unsupervised?
All of societies ills can be traced back to one thing and one thing only: PARENT APATHY!
Get of your behind and look after your kids! Don’t expect the latest video game release to do it for you!
If it says ‘18′ on the box, tell them to put it back, if they play hell, give them a slap around the head. That’s what my mum used to do and I think the world of her for it!
May 5th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
I mostly agree with you, but I differ on one point- I think parent apathy is largely responsible for a lot of bad behavior, but I cannot agree that it is everything, nor can I agree that it leads to all of society’s ills. There are many things that lead to violence and crime, and an improper upbringing is only one of them.
May 5th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
A timely and appropriate response from A Softer World:
May 5th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
“did you know that 99.9% of all statistics used in arguments are made up on the spot?”
LOL! I guess you made the point crystal clear
May 7th, 2008 at 9:53 am
I was just stumbling through and noticed this comment
Stephen Said:
Let’s do some math, shall we? If 4 million people play this game, and ONLY your .1% show a change in behavior, that’s still 400,000 people.
…I would just like to say that 0.1% of 4 million….is 4,000…not 400,000
=] thanks
May 7th, 2008 at 11:08 am
You guys all have too much time on your hands. …get a life.
May 7th, 2008 at 11:35 am
You guys all have too much time on your hands. …get a life.
Ha! Let’s see…
Job that routinely demands a minimum 60 hours a week? Check.
Twin 16 month daughters? Check.
Yah….too much time is not a problem I have.
May 7th, 2008 at 11:36 am
Too much time on our hands, I hope thats a joke. I hope your sarcasm is so advanced that my tiny brain cant comprehend it. See? I can play the sarcasm game too.
Because of threads like this, my faith in humanity slips slightly back to “hopeful”. The fact that there can be intelligent people who discuss the matter in a mature and educated fashion shows that not everyone in America have their heads up their asses.
By the way, did you know that the terrorists that flew the planes into buildings played GTA:Vice City. It made them do 9/11, because you could fly planes in the game.
May 7th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
i admit, i am an angry kid. The other kids are so mean and cruel. I play videogames to calm down. Every school shooter has been socially isolated. i made friends in online games where i was respected for killing. in fact, in some games, you can be a healer/medic that has little combat capabilities. i love/listen to npr. They r teh pwnz0rs.
May 7th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
“i made friends in online games where i was respected for killing. in fact, in some games, you can be a healer/medic that has little combat capabilities. i love/listen to npr.”
Was this entirely random or is it just me? What are you talking about?
May 7th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
I believe Stephen was addressing the underlying dichotomy between the reason he plays video games and the results in his life, as well as pointing out the team-building aspects of the game.
Oh, and NPR pwnz noob b1tchez. Which, let’s be fair, is wholly accurate.
- Your Friendly Neighborhood Paragraph Wizard. Discerning intent since 1973!
May 7th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
First off, let me say that I really enjoyed reading all of your comments. Rarely have I come across a series of arguments and rebuttals so intelligently written. Stephen, I applaud you for making your points and then continuing the discussion, rather than locking up and flaming as soon as someone disagreed. Too often I have seen a well thought out first post, followed by babbling as the person is unable to accept other opinions.
Now, I’m going to put my cards on the table.
I’m 19. I’ve been playing games since I was three, starting off with simple Atari games, and on from there. I enjoyed elementary violence, with X-MEN and Street Fighter as some of my early favorites. Mortal Kombat however, was only available to me for a short time. My parents decided it was “too graphic” for me at the time. Thus, I was no longer allowed to play it. Ever since, I have shied away from MK games, not caring for the blood and gore in them. When I was in 3rd grade, my younger brother and I would play Goldeneye 64 at a local video store for hours on end while my mother ran errands. It was one of our favorite games. However, in 6th grade, when my father learned we had purchased it, he gave us our money back and confiscated the game. In 4th grade, I rented Perfect Dark 64 for weeks on end. I loved it. It took me a while to convince my mother that I wasn’t shooting people, but rather ’simulants’ or whatever my older friend told me. Turns out they were people, but my mom didn’t research it. It didn’t matter much to me, but I found the blood to be disgusting, so I turned “Paintball Mode” on, so that blood was replaced with a tie-dye texture.
Eventually, my gaming life became dominated by the PC, with RTS and first person shooters. I stayed away from Counter-Strike because I didn’t care for the ‘community’. Note that in 3rd Grade, I had a HORRIBLE mouth, cussing out even my mother, but after that short phase, I reserve swearing for only the most extreme circumstances. Currently, I play Call of Duty 4 and Day of Defeat Source most of the time. I have an airsoft gun, but no real ones. I like target shooting, though I only do it rarely. I went through a phase in middle school where I learned that violence only makes things worse, and I have since become rather well-behaved.
As for Television, my parents limited my intake to one hour a day until 6th grade. We have never had cable, so I was only able to watch basic shows, such as Power Rangers and Pokemon. After 5th grade, television just didn’t appeal to me. We were also encouraged to read, a habit that all of us children developed and continue. In fact, to this day I “don’t” watch TV. It is on in my house occasionally, and I may sit down to watch something interesting, but it doesn’t suck up any major part of my life.
So yes, I’ve played violent video games. I played them as a child. I enjoyed them. Will I let my children play such games? Probably. I will definitely do a bit more research about them, but I intend to raise my kids in a way that violent video games can be something they can enjoy without it dictating their life.
May 8th, 2008 at 8:46 am
[...] week has a couple of interesting interviews on media and teen culture, that dovetail nicely into an ongoing discussion over at the AV Club Blog (as well as here on [...]
May 8th, 2008 at 10:44 am
James, fascinating comments, thank you very much for speaking up and for joining the conversation. All of you who are following this- read the post linked to in the trackback above, it is very applicable to this thread and is definitely worth your time.
May 8th, 2008 at 11:54 am
Online gaming for me has become something more than just gaming. It’s a way for me to hang out and talk with people who understand and that I can have a good time with, which is especially important for me since I live in the middle of nowhere. Also, the violent video games are good stress relievers, as Stephen said. It lets you get your anger out in the way you want to, but without having to hurt anyone in real life. It’s almost therapeutical (I know the spelling is wrong there but i couldn’t remember).
I would also like to add that I was raised fairly well by my parents. For the M rated games, I had to wait until i was 17/18 to buy them myself and then save up my own money. They wouldn’t buy any for me, and looking back I’m glad they didn’t
May 8th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
I think I read a study once in which the researchers found that players of FPS games were more relaxed when they died, and more tense when they were shooting. I thought it was kind of neat, since I’d never read anything on that subject before, and I’ve found it to be true in my own gaming experience. As for stress relief, I don’t know if my Call of Duty 4 games actually relieve the stress, or simply push it away for a while. I do know that when I’m done gaming for the night, I’m often more relaxed than when I started.
May 10th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Wow. Why is it that gaming websites get all the mature responders?
But seriously, I’m 12 years old. My parents knew that GTA III had its rating, and thought I was mature enough for it. Does that make them irresponsible? Not really, they just trusted me to be smart with it.
Well, I bought it, and quite frankly, thought it sucked. Did it make me want to go out and shoot someone? Not really. What I did like about it though, was that it gave you plenty of freedom to do what you wanted.
That’s why I play games, to do things that I know I’d never be able to do in real life. It lets me relax, unwind, and meet friends online that I know I would never meet in real life. Kind of in the same way that these online communities do.
Right now, I don’t own any weapons besides a Nerf gun that has bullets with paint on the tips. I ended up returning GTA III, and ever since we moved haven’t really watched tv.
May 11th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Benjamin, congratulations. From the sound of things you’re pretty mature for someone your age. I was only a bit older than you when I first tried GTA 3, and I also thought it sucked. GTA4 is a much better game in my opinion. Also, out of curiosity, do you have cable TV?